New Scenery Danish/German Coast: Firth of Flensburg

General question for Sail Simulator (raising sails, pulling sheets, etc.)

New Scenery Danish/German Coast: Firth of Flensburg

Postby ED50 » Wed 07 Mar 2007 - 17:31

Hello Sailors,
The scenery "Bight of Kiel" = "Kieler Bucht" is continued by a new scenery called

Flensburger Förde (deutsch) = Flensborg Fjord (dansk) = Firth of Flensburg (english)
located West Baltic Sea between Denmark and Germany.

Continues "Bight of Kiel" in the North West.

See details here: http://ed50.eqo.de/ProjectFF.htm or use my "readme" http://www.sailsimulator.com/archive/sc ... readme.pdf here.

The DEM was created with the help of Barrys tutorial Scenery Satellite Data Tutorial .
(It is perfect! Print the tutorial and follow it step by step and you will have a scenery in short time. Even if you have some problems the first time it will not take longer that one hour!!!)

It is named "Preview" because at this stage only the town of Flensburg is equipped!

I started to create the Blender objects with the help of pictures I shoot by myself during vacation autumn 2006. With these pictures it is possible to create very realistic houses and other objects. To give an impression I placed some photos and put the related SailSim screenshoots in parallel. Please use the links above.

Special thanks to Stefan for including the preview scenery under the well known Stentec server - http://www.sailsimulator.com/content/pr ... _user.html

Hope you like it :!:

Best Regards
Ralf
http://www.ed50.de
ed50_sail_sim(at)yahoo.de {(at)=@ to avoid spam mails}
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Postby Barry » Wed 07 Mar 2007 - 22:25

Hello Ralf. - Downloaded your route, about an hour on dial up and installed and works fine.

Only had a quick look, using the motorboat simulator and had a look at the the dock and houses, etc.
The boxes that you mentioned in your email work fine using the real photographic textures from your photos, and add to the realism.

Not sure what you are going to do as regards collision properties, etc, or whether they are included as have to explore further.

On large areas/sections of docks in one piece I use my variety of quays and slide them inside the edges of the docks. You can completely hide them or just leave an edge showing and it then gives you collision properties wherever you want them.

This way you can also use the quays with bollards or without, with just the bollards showing through wherever you want, etc, with the quay hidden inside.

Anyway just the method I use, and if you want any bits any pieces, just install them direct from my scenery folders into your Scenery Editor, etc.

Will have another explore of your route tomorrow.

Thanks

Barry

:)
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Postby ED50 » Thu 08 Mar 2007 - 18:25

Hello Barry,
at this time there are no collision frames included.

Due to former experience I started to create large objects which can easily replaced in case that I have to rebuild the DEM.

In Kieler Bucht V1 I have build towns with dozen of objects (e.g. one quay). After detecting a bug in the DEM I had to replacing all objects again in the new, rebuild scenery. It drives me mad :evil:

After that I stated to make one big object. In case of rebuild the DEM I have to replace only one.

Disadvantage is that adding the collisions is to complicated with Object Editor or via text editor.

I can thing about to add "collision objects" when the scenery is finished and I can be sure that I don't have to rebuild the DEM.

Best Regards
Ralf
http://www.ed50.de
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Postby Barry » Thu 08 Mar 2007 - 22:53

Ralf - The problem with using the wordpad fix for collision properties is tedious, for the sailing simulator will not work without it, but not needed for m/b sim.
The easy alternative is just hide quays that have collision, inside along the edges of your quays. This is what I do now.

Wordpad fix You just make one big globe and place it around the whole lot. Copy that line, Delete the giant globe and paste the value back in and save.

32 bit textures won't work for backdrops of town skylines and tree etc in sailsimulator, but work OK only in the motorboat simulator.These save on frame rates.

I do not seem able to use the Object Editor to place the collision spheres with the arrow keys anymore as has become erratic and have to type the values in so just use the ones I made a while ago or add very big spheres.

Regarding placing the objects in the Scenery Designer there seems to be a limit and each time you save it gets slower and slower taking a few minutes to save the more items you add.
I don't know what the limit is. This has nothing to do with frame rates but apparently the limiitations of the program.
Possibly my graphics card is limited also, ati radeon 9800, but was a better one a few years back.

Maybe the next Scenery Designer and SS5 will have some good improvements over what we have now and an easier method for placing collision detection and especially being able to correct the depths etc without having to restart over from the dem. Had that problem a few times myself with blocked rivers, etc.

You can place collision in the Blender Game Engine and have obejcts bouncing and colliding off other obejects etc..but only works in Blender unfortunately.

Anyway had a full sail around all the built up area you made and looks quite good especially as modelled on the actual area with real life textures.

I think it is time I tried to make some more sailing barges, based more on actual designs. I have a booklet about them and will see if I can make something better than the ones I made, which was a few years ago now and a bit basic.

At least looking at your scenery has helped to get me more interested once again.

Thanks

Barry

P.S. Ralf....Hope you don't mind my obsevations, but they are just about the program, and maybe Stentec will read them and they will be constructive, as they are now in the course of making SS5, and very few people post nowadays or seem interested in scenery or content making.
Last edited by Barry on Sun 11 Mar 2007 - 04:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Exocet25fr » Fri 09 Mar 2007 - 15:19

Hi Ralf ! :D

I downloaded your new scenery; it seems nice but I have a big problem ! :( I used MotorBoat and only boats are visible.........!? :?

It's very curious because, the harbour, buildings and boats are visibles in the Scenery Designer Toolkit, but not in the Sim ?, any idea.....? :wink:
Jean-Marc
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Postby Barry » Sun 11 Mar 2007 - 04:15

Ralf great variety of building shapes, church, houses, restaurant, etc, and really good effect.

Also just the simple things add to the realism like the sign you put on the waterfront.

Only thing missing is the sound of the church bells ringing out across the town. :wink:

--
Jean-Marc Hi. Runs fine for me on motorboat sim and sailsim, no problems. graphics card ati radeon about 4 years old.
Maybe download another copy, update drivers or re-install m/b sim?

Vista needs the file adding but I am using XP.

Barry

:)
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Postby ED50 » Sun 11 Mar 2007 - 20:33

Hi Jean-Marc,
I must say, I have no idea why MoBoSim will not show the objects. I can not test it because I don't have MS.

Have you tried to copy the Flensburg object in an own created scenery?

Hi Barry,
thank you for your nice feedback. I can ask Stefan to include bells for SS5 :lol:

Regarding the collision setting: The last time I including the collision frames I used the Object Editor and it works fine. The user interface is strange when using it the first time but this interface has benefits because you can add delta positions compared to the actual position (e.g. move 10 m to the left) .

The reason why I havn't include the collision is when I opened the large opject in Objet Editor I can not detect any details and a zoom function (like Blender has) is still missing in Object Editor. Adding it by test editor is also impossible because I have no idea what a position of an detailed object is.

Bye
Ralf
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Postby Barry » Sun 11 Mar 2007 - 22:43

Ralf we may be talking about different things.

When you add collision spheres they do not work in sailsimulator. The boat sails through them.
They ONLY work when you use the motorboat simualator.

Right mouse moves the object about in Object Editor to position it and the 2 mouse buttons together to make smaller or larger. You can shift large objects along bit by bit with right mouse to work on sections.

To get the collision spheres to work in the sailsimular, open the S3D, or buoy file for boats and buoys, in wordpad or notepad (text editor). When you place the spheres there is a fault and and the large sphere value is incorrect.

The collision sphere line is the one you have to replace with the new values. You make a very large sphere to go around ALL the spheres. Open in wordpad or notepad and copy the new CollisionSphere line (made by the very large sphere you created). You then delete the single large sphere you made, save and paste back the line you copied, and the collision spheres should then work in sailsimulator. Make sure you don't have an extra bracket or it crashes the computer or sim. I found

((7.85091448s 1.80104363s 4s) 1s)
((5.17159843s 1.85859358s 4s) 1s)
((24.887188s 1.47855091s 0s) 1s)
)
CollisionSphere = (0.0192213655s -2.08957624s 0s 27.1299763s)
Meshes = <
item
Vertices = (
72
22.8490009s -7.05999994s 1.92400002s

I don't know why Stentec never fixed it to work in sailsimualator but no problem with motorboat sim, and any spheres you place will work OK without "fixing" them in motorboat sim.

Roll on sailsimulator 5 and new Scenery Designer and hopefully everything will work correctly.

Anyway Just ignore this post if you wish, as you probably know about it anyway, and the whole process is a bit tedious.
I redid a lot of mine to get them to work OK a while ago.

Thanks

Barry

:)
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Postby ED50 » Mon 12 Mar 2007 - 20:41

Hello Barry,
first of all the hint to shift the object within the Object Editor and to change the size is very helpfull - I havn't recognized this function yet.

But I still have not understood how to correct the collision setting.

I have created the following example:

CollisionSpheres.Items = (
((0s 0s 0s) 5s)
((5s 0s 0s) 5s)
((10s 0s 0s) 5s)
((15s 0s 0s) 5s)
((20s 0s 0s) 2s)
((-5s 0s 0s) 5s)
((-10s 0s 0s) 5s)
((-15s 0s 0s) 5s)
((-20s 0s -2s) 0.5s)
((-20s 0s -2.5s) 0.5s)
((-20s 0s -3s) 0.5s)
((0s 0s 0s) 25s)
)
CollisionSphere = (3.81607876E-38s 3.85785651E-38s 0s -22.3859997s)
Mass = 300000
CG = (-0.113499641s 0s 3.17824984s)
Inertia = (11250087s 67780256s 62534904s)
Meshes = <
item
Vertices = (
1183
-10.3620005s 0s -0.614000022s
-10.3620005s -4.99499989s 1.75s
-10.3620005s -5.00199986s -0.614000022s
...

The bold line is the new big sphere. How do I have to proceed?

I understood that I have to change the line "CollisionSphere" but what are the correct values?

Thanks
Ralf
http://www.ed50.de
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Postby Barry » Mon 12 Mar 2007 - 23:45

Hello Ralf.

perhaps try it first by just adding the ordinary spheres to test if boat sail through the spheres . As far as I know it hasn't been fixed but the motorboat sim must have been adusted in some way to compensate as the "fix" not needed.

The spheres need to be at the height of the side of a boat. The collision spheres on a boat need to touch the collision spheres on the object otherwise the boat will sail over or under them. Maybe add 2 rows. It all uses up frame rates though.


Just copy your new CollisionSphere line
3.81607876E-38s 3.85785651E-38s 0s -22.3859997s

Then close wordpad and go back to the Object Editor and delete the big sphere you made. Open with wordpad, delete any figures against CollisionSphere line inside the brackets and paste in the copied figures of the giant sphere you made. 3.81607876E-38s 3.85785651E-38s 0s -22.3859997s which needs the opening and closing bracket around it as in your line.
(3.81607876E-38s 3.85785651E-38s 0s -22.3859997s)

Should now read as below AFTER you delete the giant sphere you made (which was your bold figures).

CollisionSphere = (3.81607876E-38s 3.85785651E-38s 0s -22.3859997s)


and save.
(To delete the giant sphere you made (your bold figures) I think you click on the giant sphere line in Object Editor to highlight and click minus (-)from within Object Editor.
Its been a while since I fixed any.

They should then work. Make sure you do NOT have an extra bracket or a missing bracket or computer or sim may crash.
Make a back up copy of object first.

Also to place the small spheres use the arrow keys, rather than type the values in. I think you have to click on the object screen first to make it active to get the spheres to move with the arrow keys (not number pad arrows arrow keys).

The arrow keys stopped working for me some reason and figures went erratic, and I have to fiddle with the values typing them in.

Also I just insert the quays I made that I know work OK or collision strips I made INSIDE a large area along the edges I wish to give collIsion properties to.

Alternatively perhaps make yourself some different size long thin extended cubes, put collision spheres on then place them inside the parts on the edges that dont have collision. You can then use any combination of them of any size you wish and only takes a few minutes to add them wherever you want and all those areas then have collision properties.

Or use any of mine, as you wont see them inside your large quay areas. Mine will say coll. or nocoll if without collision, but test if they work first as I think some of mine still need fixing.

I think with floating objects, buoys and boats, after "fixing" them you may have to reset (or try to) the floating properties.
The only way I could get some of my boats to float was by hiding an extended box inside the length of the hull.

Thanks

Barry

P.S The CollisionSphere line is the value the software gave that includes the area covered by all the spheres.

By making the giant sphere this corrects the "glitch" the software made.
Jeroen from Stentec explained it in a post a few years ago to me, so its something like I explained.

P.P.S Just had a look at the way you made the scenery as one object. That would take some making in Blender, but a a lot easier as you say to put it back after adjusting the dem. depths, etc.
P.P.P.S
left mouse to rotate in Object Editor but I think you will know that one.
I think that covers everything :wink:
but post if problems.

:)
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Postby altug » Fri 16 Mar 2007 - 13:29

Hi Ralf :D
CONGRATULATIONS :!: I really enjoyed the city's realistic waterline and its harbour. Your great work shows how towns can get realistic in Stentec's Simulators. Looking forward to see Sail Simulator 5. Thanx again for this great scenery :D
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Postby Exocet25fr » Sat 17 Mar 2007 - 21:45

Hi Ralf ! :D

I was very busy, but today I tried your new scenery with SS4 and it runs fine..........! :P , Congratulation for this nice scenery ! :P

But always the same with motorboat, it's invisible.....!?, only the boats are visible !, It"s curious because Barry said it works fine for him with mb !

Me too I use my old GeForce4 64mb, but never had problem before ! : :cry:

Bye ! :wink:
Jean-Marc
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Postby Barry » Sat 17 Mar 2007 - 23:56

Hi Jean-Marc just tried it again in mb and it started where I left off.

Maybe try loading the scenery again as you get just water and boat when the scenery is not loaded.
Environment/Scenery then if it loads Simulation/Save simulation with a name. Close m/b then see if it will start from the start screen.
Just guessing and you have probably tried anyway :wink:
Ralf's docks and town are just one 3D model so maybe something to do with that?

Barry
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Postby ED50 » Sun 18 Mar 2007 - 01:18

Hello Barry,
just finished working on the collision item.

Based on your hint I was able to add collision spheres to the KüMo (stands for Küstenmotorschiff = Coastal Motor Ship) - thanks a lot :wink:

I have added the new object as s3d and buoy under Downloads in my Webpage: http://ed50.eqo.de/Downloads.htm

I am still thinking how to add the collision spheres to the big Flensburg object. It will be very tricky to add all the bollards. In addition I have concerns because due to the bug in Object editor I have to add one big sphere around the small ones. But in my case it has to encapsulate the complete town of Flensburg. I am expecting graphic performance degration with that.

Anyhow - I will keep you informed about my further steps ...


Greetings to Altug - thank you for your nice feedback. Have you planned to add a new scenery also in the next time frame? :)

Greetings to Jean-Marc - hopefully you can fix the MB issue. :cry:

All the best
Ralf
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Postby Barry » Sun 18 Mar 2007 - 02:37

Hello Ralf pleased you sorted the collision spheres.

I wouldn't try to add spheres to it all. maybe Just add a few hidden strips with collission added to the strips where a boat may stop, by the cranes, etc You only need a small strip and lay them end to end where required. etc. Same with bollards put a few on a strip and hide them under the edge of your quays where required. You can then always delete these small items if you wish and easy to put back on.


Hope Stentec makes the collsion properties easier especially if they introduce tides as don't know how you could cover a whole quay will collision spheres with the tide rising and falling.

Barry
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